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  Constitution
by: beearraydee, 10-10-2018 01:22 PM (#1)

Can anyone from the SPA clarify what the process is for votes being passed at meetings, and how fundamental changes work and what is defined as a fundamental change? Surely all members most be polled on fundamental changes? What makes a vote constitutional and unconstitutional?

I tried to check the constitution but I got the following message:

"As agreed at the SPA meeting on Sunday 4th December 2016, the online version of the SPA Constitution, and it's appendices, are out of date and have been removed from the website.

The SPA Executive Committee will carry out a full review of the Constitution and shall publish the amended version in due course.

Regards,
Michael"


Surely almost 2 years later there's an updated constitution?
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RE: Constitution
by: Gerryb, 11-10-2018 10:29 AM (#2)

Well they are 10 months late with 2017 signed accounts. There is no account for this year as of yet. So members have no clue about income and expenditure but are being asked to pay another fiver (sorry told) to be a member. I run two charities who are accountable to OSCR and Companies House. There would be fines and threats all over the place if we were conducting our finances the way this national body does.
 
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Edited by Gerryb 11-10-2018 10:34 AM
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RE: Constitution
by: FCBash, 13-10-2018 01:11 PM (#3)

beearraydee wrote:
Can anyone from the SPA clarify what the process is for votes being passed at meetings, and how fundamental changes work and what is defined as a fundamental change? Surely all members most be polled on fundamental changes? What makes a vote constitutional and unconstitutional?


I'll try to explain. Proposals are made at SPA meetings, then taken away from the meeting by the Reps and discussed at local level. Thereafter, a vote is taken at the next meeting and the result of the vote stands. However, votes can be taken at same meetings without being taken back to areas IF their is a time constraint on the decision to be made.

A fundamental change is just that. Something that is fundamentally changing the running of the organisation OR a fundamental change to the constitution, however, a fundamental change to the constitution would need to be made at an AGM or EGM.

A vote being constitutional or unconstitutional, again, would be whether it follows the constitution or not.



beearraydee wrote:
Surely almost 2 years later there's an updated constitution?


At the time that it was proposed to remove the current Constitution the body of the hall were informed that the updating of the Constitution could take some time. Remember, the Exec, in their unpaid roles, have day jobs and lives to fit in amongst pool also. It was still considered necessary to remove the outdated constitution to ensure conflicting information was not displayed.

I have personally reviewed the current Constitution (granted, it took longer than I anticipated to have a revised draft) but this has been distributed to the Exec for their comment before it is brought in front of the Members.
 
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RE: Constitution
by: FCBash, 13-10-2018 01:16 PM (#4)

Gerryb wrote:
Well they are 10 months late with 2017 signed accounts. There is no account for this year as of yet. So members have no clue about income and expenditure but are being asked to pay another fiver (sorry told) to be a member. I run two charities who are accountable to OSCR and Companies House. There would be fines and threats all over the place if we were conducting our finances the way this national body does.


Not quite 10 months, as the Accounts are due until the AGM. However, that's me being pedantic. The accounts are late, there is no way of dressing that up and nobody is trying to. These things happen. The Members have been advised of this and the reasoning.

Members are not being told to pay another fiver. This was a proposal made by a member, voted on and then carried. This was a proposal that was carried with quite substantial backing.

Comparing the SPA to Charitable organisations is not really a true comparison, unfortunately my background isn't accounting and I don;t know the "ins and outs" of businesses and charitable organisations. Although I am aware that the SPA is not a registered charity or limited company and, as such, is not accountable to OSCR or CH. Its a 'not for profit' organisation that is run by members for the members. Simple as that.
 
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RE: Constitution
by: beearraydee, 14-10-2018 10:37 AM (#5)

FCBash wrote:
Gerryb wrote:
Well they are 10 months late with 2017 signed accounts. There is no account for this year as of yet. So members have no clue about income and expenditure but are being asked to pay another fiver (sorry told) to be a member. I run two charities who are accountable to OSCR and Companies House. There would be fines and threats all over the place if we were conducting our finances the way this national body does.


Not quite 10 months, as the Accounts are due until the AGM. However, that's me being pedantic. The accounts are late, there is no way of dressing that up and nobody is trying to. These things happen. The Members have been advised of this and the reasoning.

Members are not being told to pay another fiver. This was a proposal made by a member, voted on and then carried. This was a proposal that was carried with quite substantial backing.

Comparing the SPA to Charitable organisations is not really a true comparison, unfortunately my background isn't accounting and I don;t know the "ins and outs" of businesses and charitable organisations. Although I am aware that the SPA is not a registered charity or limited company and, as such, is not accountable to OSCR or CH. Its a 'not for profit' organisation that is run by members for the members. Simple as that.


So when is the constitution going in place? Surely members have a right to know how the SPA should be run?
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RE: Constitution
by: FCBash, 14-10-2018 02:40 PM (#6)

beearraydee wrote:
So when is the constitution going in place? Surely members have a right to know how the SPA should be run?


Unfortunately, I cannot put a timescale on this, it all depends when the Exec respond in full and any comments/concerns are addressed.
 
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RE: Constitution
by: Gerryb, 15-10-2018 11:38 AM (#7)

FCBash wrote:
Gerryb wrote:
Well they are 10 months late with 2017 signed accounts. There is no account for this year as of yet. So members have no clue about income and expenditure but are being asked to pay another fiver (sorry told) to be a member. I run two charities who are accountable to OSCR and Companies House. There would be fines and threats all over the place if we were conducting our finances the way this national body does.


Not quite 10 months, as the Accounts are due until the AGM. However, that's me being pedantic. The accounts are late, there is no way of dressing that up and nobody is trying to. These things happen. The Members have been advised of this and the reasoning.

Members are not being told to pay another fiver. This was a proposal made by a member, voted on and then carried. This was a proposal that was carried with quite substantial backing.

Comparing the SPA to Charitable organisations is not really a true comparison, unfortunately my background isn't accounting and I don;t know the "ins and outs" of businesses and charitable organisations. Although I am aware that the SPA is not a registered charity or limited company and, as such, is not accountable to OSCR or CH. Its a 'not for profit' organisation that is run by members for the members. Simple as that.


Canít really say much about how the SPA is supposed to run as there is no constitution or rules on show. To the world looking in itís a couple of people doing what they think is best for the rest, like it or not thatís the way it is. In terms of the accounts, the SPA is the governing body of pool and should have an independent accountant to verify and qualify the reports of the people doing the finance. Without such a thing only leaves us open to accusations. It does not matter what you call yourself there should be accountability at this point the people who run the SPA are not accountable to the members. The least they can do then is appoint an accountant to ensure that there is a an official agreed and detailed account of the finances.
 
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RE: Constitution
by: Gerryb, 15-10-2018 11:42 AM (#8)

FCBash wrote:
Gerryb wrote:
Well they are 10 months late with 2017 signed accounts. There is no account for this year as of yet. So members have no clue about income and expenditure but are being asked to pay another fiver (sorry told) to be a member. I run two charities who are accountable to OSCR and Companies House. There would be fines and threats all over the place if we were conducting our finances the way this national body does.


Not quite 10 months, as the Accounts are due until the AGM. However, that's me being pedantic. The accounts are late, there is no way of dressing that up and nobody is trying to. These things happen. The Members have been advised of this and the reasoning.

Members are not being told to pay another fiver. This was a proposal made by a member, voted on and then carried. This was a proposal that was carried with quite substantial backing.

Comparing the SPA to Charitable organisations is not really a true comparison, unfortunately my background isn't accounting and I don;t know the "ins and outs" of businesses and charitable organisations. Although I am aware that the SPA is not a registered charity or limited company and, as such, is not accountable to OSCR or CH. Its a 'not for profit' organisation that is run by members for the members. Simple as that.


How can any change be made when there is no governing document in place? When you say substantial, how many of the 4000 odd members voted on this proposal?
 
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RE: Constitution
by: secretary, 15-10-2018 01:03 PM (#9)

Gerryb wrote:
[quote]FCBash wrote:
[quote]Gerryb wrote:



How can any change be made when there is no governing document in place? When you say substantial, how many of the 4000 odd members voted on this proposal?



Where did you get the figure of 4000 members?

My last count was 45
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RE: Constitution
by: beearraydee, 15-10-2018 02:20 PM (#10)

secretary wrote:
Gerryb wrote:
[quote]FCBash wrote:
[quote]Gerryb wrote:



How can any change be made when there is no governing document in place? When you say substantial, how many of the 4000 odd members voted on this proposal?



Where did you get the figure of 4000 members?

My last count was 45


Without any constitution in place, who's to say that every individual that plays in an affiliated league doesn't get their own personal vote on every matter?

How can you even define who holds membership without a constitution? And don't say its common sense because it's not. There could be valid and differing interpretations.
 
Edited by beearraydee 15-10-2018 02:34 PM
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RE: Constitution
by: beearraydee, 15-10-2018 02:43 PM (#11)

Entry for the 2019 Series is £25 per player, offering one of the best value tournaments on offer with all entry money taken in being paid out. This season just under £32k will have been paid out over the 6 IM events. In addition, players will have to pay their £5 SPA Member Registration.


Even the SPA seem a bit confused on the matter, this post about the IM series seems to suggest that paying £5 will mean you are an 'SPA Member'.
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RE: Constitution
by: Gerryb, 15-10-2018 03:33 PM (#12)

beearraydee wrote:
secretary wrote:
Gerryb wrote:
[quote]FCBash wrote:
[quote]Gerryb wrote:



How can any change be made when there is no governing document in place? When you say substantial, how many of the 4000 odd members voted on this proposal?



Where did you get the figure of 4000 members?

My last count was 45


Without any constitution in place, who's to say that every individual that plays in an affiliated league doesn't get their own personal vote on every matter?

How can you even define who holds membership without a constitution? And don't say its common sense because it's not. There could be valid and differing interpretations.


If theres going to be a membership scheme then we ar all members. So when that happens what do we get to decide?

45 and all representatives of their leagues who acted without a mandate.
 
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RE: Constitution
by: scottyj, 15-10-2018 05:15 PM (#13)

secretary wrote:
Gerryb wrote:
[quote]FCBash wrote:
[quote]Gerryb wrote:



How can any change be made when there is no governing document in place? When you say substantial, how many of the 4000 odd members voted on this proposal?



Where did you get the figure of 4000 members?

My last count was 45


Affiliated to the World Pool-Billiard Association the Scottish Pool Association is recognised as the sole and official governing body representing the interests of Scotland's 8ball pool players.

With in excess of 17,000 members playing for 1,200 teams from 35 leagues, we compete as gents, ladies, U23, U18, learning difficulty and physical disability players at local, National, European and World level. Our national teams have amassed an impressive array of titles including a clean sweep at the World Championships. The SPA administer a series of individual and team events for players of all abilities.

According to the top of forum page it say "with excess of 17,000 members" so who do we believe?
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RE: Constitution
by: FCBash, 15-10-2018 05:38 PM (#14)

Gerryb wrote:
Canít really say much about how the SPA is supposed to run as there is no constitution or rules on show. To the world looking in itís a couple of people doing what they think is best for the rest, like it or not thatís the way it is. In terms of the accounts, the SPA is the governing body of pool and should have an independent accountant to verify and qualify the reports of the people doing the finance. Without such a thing only leaves us open to accusations. It does not matter what you call yourself there should be accountability at this point the people who run the SPA are not accountable to the members. The least they can do then is appoint an accountant to ensure that there is a an official agreed and detailed account of the finances.


It might just be that, people doing their best, but that's what its all about is it not?

An independent accountant is appointed for the SPA. Paul McKendry does this for us and has done for the last 3 to 4 years, before this Laura Colqhoun carried out this task.
 
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RE: Constitution
by: FCBash, 15-10-2018 05:43 PM (#15)

Gerryb wrote:
How can any change be made when there is no governing document in place? When you say substantial, how many of the 4000 odd members voted on this proposal?


The Constitution is still live, yes its outdated, but we are still governed by the document. The members wanted it removed from the website, that's what happened. The document wasn't discarded or deleted from use.

No proposal would be voted on or taken to every single member on any subject. Each Area has one vote. which is cast by their Area Rep after canvassing their own areas collectively.

From the Constitution:-

7. Voting Rights and Procedures
At any SPA meeting elected representatives have the right to raise points of clarification, and indeed
propose changes to the way that the SPA operates. Any fundamental changes should only be raised at an
AGM (or EGM), but in any meeting there may be the possibility that a matter will require a vote.
Voting cards will be handed out before any meeting commences to eligible representatives (one local
league and SPA executive committee members).
The voting should run as follows; all proposals on a single issue should be taken by the chairman,
provided they are discernibly different from each other, those proposals should then be voted on by the
body of the hall with the least popular being excluded on each round. The chairman defines the vote for
each round, and this process continues until there are only two proposals remaining Ė at this stage, the
proposal with the most votes is then matched against the status quo. If the proposed change then defeats
the status quo in the last round of voting, the motion is carried. The voting procedure for elections to SPA
positions will work in the same manner as above.
As above, only elected representatives have a right to vote on proposals at any meeting. Each affiliated
league is entitled to a vote, as is each member of the Executive Committee. Neither phone nor postal
votes will be accepted. Should the need arise; the chairman or his/her deputy shall have the casting vote.
 
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RE: Constitution
by: FCBash, 15-10-2018 05:47 PM (#16)

beearraydee wrote:
Entry for the 2019 Series is £25 per player, offering one of the best value tournaments on offer with all entry money taken in being paid out. This season just under £32k will have been paid out over the 6 IM events. In addition, players will have to pay their £5 SPA Member Registration.


Even the SPA seem a bit confused on the matter, this post about the IM series seems to suggest that paying £5 will mean you are an 'SPA Member'.


Not sure where the confusion lies here, but its certainly not with the SPA. I was clarifying that we (The SPA) are not telling people they must pay £5 to become a member. This wasn't something the SPA has mandatory brought in, this was what the members wanted. That's where the £5 membership fee arose. But to be clear, nobody is being told they must pay five pounds, it is their decision whether to become a member or not. If not, then they will not have access to the SPA events.
 
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RE: Constitution
by: beearraydee, 15-10-2018 05:47 PM (#17)

FCBash wrote:
Gerryb wrote:
How can any change be made when there is no governing document in place? When you say substantial, how many of the 4000 odd members voted on this proposal?


The Constitution is still live, yes its outdated, but we are still governed by the document. The members wanted it removed from the website, that's what happened. The document wasn't discarded or deleted from use.

No proposal would be voted on or taken to every single member on any subject. Each Area has one vote. which is cast by their Area Rep after canvassing their own areas collectively.

From the Constitution:-

7. Voting Rights and Procedures
At any SPA meeting elected representatives have the right to raise points of clarification, and indeed
propose changes to the way that the SPA operates. Any fundamental changes should only be raised at an
AGM (or EGM), but in any meeting there may be the possibility that a matter will require a vote.
Voting cards will be handed out before any meeting commences to eligible representatives (one local
league and SPA executive committee members).
The voting should run as follows; all proposals on a single issue should be taken by the chairman,
provided they are discernibly different from each other, those proposals should then be voted on by the
body of the hall with the least popular being excluded on each round. The chairman defines the vote for
each round, and this process continues until there are only two proposals remaining Ė at this stage, the
proposal with the most votes is then matched against the status quo. If the proposed change then defeats
the status quo in the last round of voting, the motion is carried. The voting procedure for elections to SPA
positions will work in the same manner as above.
As above, only elected representatives have a right to vote on proposals at any meeting. Each affiliated
league is entitled to a vote, as is each member of the Executive Committee. Neither phone nor postal
votes will be accepted. Should the need arise; the chairman or his/her deputy shall have the casting vote.


Can it please be shared?
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RE: Constitution
by: FCBash, 15-10-2018 05:50 PM (#18)

beearraydee wrote:
Can it please be shared?


I'm reluctant to share it at the moment, that's not to hide anything. I'm happy to be transparent on all matters. My problem at the moment lies with the fact that the membership wanted it removed so that it doesn't cause problems with it being outdated AND the fact the revised document is currently being reviewed for putting to the membership.
 
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RE: Constitution
by: geegee1984, 15-10-2018 06:24 PM (#19)

What members wanted the £5 membership fee brought in?
Only members I saw tha wanted it in were the members involved with the international teams and wanted the £5 brought in to assist with the costs of going to Australia

Iím also led to believe that on this matter it never went out to the leagues to vote on it and was just announced.

No minutes were ever made available to the leagues prior to this getting voted on
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RE: Constitution
by: knowledge, 15-10-2018 06:29 PM (#20)

geegee1984 wrote:
What members wanted the £5 membership fee brought in?
Only members I saw tha wanted it in were the members involved with the international teams and wanted the £5 brought in to assist with the costs of going to Australia

Iím also led to believe that on this matter it never went out to the leagues to vote on it and was just announced.

No minutes were ever made available to the leagues prior to this getting voted on


I'm not sure any of this is going to international players. It was decided at the last meeting to clean out the WC Fund for the upcoming event in Brid so it'll be a starting point of £0 with two years to Aus but I would certainly think the members would get input into the destination of the £5s.

Agree 100% about the minutes etc.
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